Evangelicals for Obama?

I had considered putting up a post about the latest nonsense from Bill Keller, who just has to push buttons.

In fact, I had been writing it in my head most of the day … but then I came home and read OneMom’s comment on my previous post, and had to agree with her. To say the least, I don’t want to be mistaken for an Obama supporter. I think that I’ve made that clear. So, instead, I’m going to talk about Frank Schaeffer and his comments about Sen. Obama’s candidacy.

I have to say that I appreciated one of his articles, talking about the Jeremiah Wright controversy. Frank Schaeffer breaks with his father, and even his own record, in his more-recent accusations of the Religious Right. I admire that about him. Frankly, I’m right there with him in a lot of ways. Like him, I’m not a Republican. I do not appreciate the intellectual inconsistency of those who moralize about homosexuality and Harry Potter books but bristle at the moment we talk about caring for the poor or being responsible stewards of Creation.

However … Frank Schaeffer goes too far in his support of Barack Obama. A friend of mine in real life (yes, I do have real life friends … in fact, yes, I do have a real life!) has pointed me in the direction of Mr. Schaeffer’s writings, and I do enjoy them.

That article, by the way, is a very good one up until its conclusion. I think that Mr. Schaeffer accurately diagnoses the problems with a lot of the Republican Party, the political arm of the Evangelical movement, and a lot of other things.

He’s dead-on accurate with this charge:

Similarly the Republicans have also been hypocrites while talking big, for instance about their pro-life ethic. But what have they achieved? First, through their puritanical war on sex education they’ve hindered our country from actually preventing unwanted pregnancy. Second, through the Republican Party’s marriage to the greediest and most polluting earth-destroying corporations they’ve created a climate (both moral and physical) that has scorched the earth for-profit, with no regard to future generations whatsoever. The Republicans are to the pro-life movement what the Clintons are to selfless public service.

He’s brilliant in the next paragraph, in which he goes on to prescribe a solution to the problems …

The real solution to abortion is to change the heart of America, not the law. We need to stop seeing ourselves as consumers. We need to stop seeing ourselves as me and begin to think of we. Our country needs someone to show us a better way, a president who is what he seems, someone with actual moral authority that our diverse population can believe in who has the qualities that make us want to follow him.

That is, until he ended the paragraph (and the article) with this sentence:

Obama is that person.

I don’t see how one could possibly reach that conclusion. Sen. Obama has no commitment to ending abortion. He’s an advocate for expanding abortion. The real question here is going to come down to whether abortion is a major consideration in one’s Presidential choices.

There are many things that I admire about Sen. Obama. I think that I’ve listed those, far more than I want to do. I can and will continue to defend him against stupid charges, and I resent the insult to my intelligence presented by those who mock his name or try to tell me that he’s a militant atheist black liberation Christian leftist Muslim extremist.

But there’s a line with supporting Obama that I simply cannot cross. Ever.

He is not merely pro-choice. He is not merely pro-abortion. Barack Obama fought hard to protect the practice of infanticide. A small snippet of that article by Jill Stanek:

In 2003, as chairman of the next Senate committee to which BAIPA was sent, Obama stopped it from even getting a hearing, shelving it to die much like babies were still being shelved to die in Illinois hospitals and abortion clinics.

(As chair of that same committee, Obama once abruptly ended a hearing early, right before Scott and Janet Willis, the parents of six children killed as a result of Illinois’ drivers licenses for bribes scandal, were to testify in favor of Choose Life license plate legislation. I was there for that one, too. The Willises had traveled three hours. Reporters filled the room. Obama stalled. He later killed the bill when no one was around.)

BAIPA is the Born Alive Infant Protection Act. It’s a law that protects the lives of babies who survive abortions and are alive, no longer attached to their mothers. The law sailed through the US Senate, without a single no-vote. NARAL did not oppose BAIPA. Barack Obama, however, prevented it from getting so much as a hearing. This isn’t pro-choice. At the very least, this is the pro-abortion position that many pro-choicers claim doesn’t exist. The idea that infanticide is a vital part of “protecting a woman’s right to choose” is more than a little ridiculous … which is why even Barbara Boxer, Ted Kennedy, Hillary Clinton, and their ilk did not oppose the bill in the US Senate.

Frank Schaeffer has rejected John McCain as a Presidential pick, and that makes interesting reading (Schaeffer backed McCain in 2000, by the way). I’m with him on that. I also reject Sen. McCain as a good choice for President. However, I’m not willing to run to Sen. Obama when he so completely offends my values on an important issue.

Frankly, I think that Schaeffer might want to consider looking into other candidates, ones who share all of his values. It’s about time that I put up another post about Joe Schriner, isn’t it?

41 Responses to “Evangelicals for Obama?”

  1. Joseph Says:

    Evangelicals will not vote for Obama if;
    They understand Obama’s support for abortion under any and all circumstances.
    They believe that abortion kills God’s created human lives.
    They read Psalm 139:13-14a, “You knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise You becasue I am fearfully and wonderfully made.”
    They conclude, therfore, that a vote for Obama is a vote against God’s creations.

  2. wickle Says:

    Sadly, though, Frank Schaeffer disagrees with you. While he’s clearly rationalizing his position, he’s certainly an Evangelical, and his pro-life credentials are more than intact … except that I would consider “supports Obama” a huge demerit in that regard.

  3. Larry Says:

    Wickle,
    I am afraid the Evangelicals are the ones who will win this election for Obama. I don’t understand how they can look past the abortion issue that is staring them right in the face, but that is what they seem to be doing.

  4. onemom Says:

    Frank Schaeffer is the last person I expected to support Obama … I can’t even imagine that. Sad.

  5. wickle Says:

    I’m with you, OneMom … when my friend said that Schaeffer was backing Obama, I was sure that it was “supporting” him in the sense of defending him from some exaggerated charge or something. But then I started reading the posts, and became very depressed.

    This has replaced “Pat Robertson endorses Rudy Giuliani” as the biggest shock of the campaign season. After all, Pat Robertson has been nuts for some time (super-strength milk shakes, anyone?).

    Larry, I think you’re right … I’m willing to overlook a lot of things and make a lot of compromises, but I just can’t get past abortion, much less infanticide.

  6. jennifer in OR Says:

    So, my Evangelical Christian friend who switched parties to vote for Obama in the primary – she says that for her, the environmental issues are very important to her, and when I said, more important than the fact that he will allow millions of more babies to be killed, she said, well, that’s why we have Pregnancy Resource Centers, they’ll take care of it.

    Hmmm. Saving the environment trumps saving human life. That is a very sad commentary on our culture, including our Christian culture.

    On Frank Schaeffer, I’ve never been a fan. Anyone who speaks so terribly (and self-righteously) about his father I have little respect for. Like he’s doing any better.

  7. Mike Says:

    The Christian vote (evangelicals) has by and large elected conservatives and republicans over the last 20 years. But the reason for this is that people of faith most clearly identified with the positions that those types of candidates staked out. It would be a mistake for anyone to assume that the Christian vote will always be supportive of conservatives and republicans who abandon the values that Christians hold dear. On the other hand, I think that as time unfolds Obama is going to have a difficult time transitioning evangelicals to his camp. Up to this point in time he has had the luxury of courting evangelicals, especially young evangelicals, without clearly spelling out his positions. That will change in the coming weeks. I do believe that one clear consistency among evangelicals is that when the time comes they will examine positions and if those positions come up short of the mark, then they will find an alternative which certainly could include not voting. By the way, the comment above that Frank Schaeffer is an evangelical is not accurate. While Frank was raised as an evangelical he certainly rejected that form of Christianity and embraced the Orthodox Church. I think most of the good folks who are Orthodox would not be happy about being called an evangelical.

  8. wickle Says:

    Thanks, Mike. I didn’t know that Schaeffer had changed that much and actually headed to the Orthodox Church. My apologies to any and all Orthodox folk offended by this.

    I hope that you’re right, that Evangelicals will take a real look at Obama. Having said that, I hope that they take a good look at the Republican Party, too. We’ve been letting the GOP get away with too much or too long, and it’s time that they earn our support instead of taking it for granted.

    Thanks again.

  9. Mike Says:

    wickle
    no apologies needed, i really did not mean it to sound like one should be given. i have followed and read much of frank schaeffer over the years, so i just knew where he was coming from.
    i am hopeful that what i said above will happen. but i have to admit that i am highly concerned about the evangelical youth vote. i think that young evangelicals are highly susceptible to the general appeal for hope that obama offers. of course this only matters if they actual go out and vote, so we shall see.

  10. Pearl Says:

    Please wake up. Republicans are no more interested in pro-life issues than anyone else. They’ve been using this as a tool to get elected for years. They’ve had control of the White House and both houses for years and have done nothing about abortion. Don’t you see you’re being played? The best way to fight abortion is to instill a love of God in your children so that they will grow with a sense of self-respect and self-esteem and will not even think of creating a life outside the sanctity of marriage.

  11. Evan_Gelical Says:

    I couldn’t agree more with you, Pearl. I think Republicans have been using the abortion issue to get elected, period. I’ve never been able to reconcile the Republican’s Pro-Life stance with their advocacy for war, the death penalty, and opposition to universal healthcare and disdain for gun control. It doesn’t mesh.

    You either respect ALL life, or you don’t!

    The best way to fight abortion is walking our talk – abstinence before marriage; and teaching teens why it’s SO worth the wait, and using language that teens relate to. The truth is, nothing else works in the end. Even outlawing abortion won’t stop abortions from happening, sadly.

    I won’t be swayed by this single wedge issue anymore. I’m voting my conscious this time. On 80% of the issues, I’m with Obama. On 20%, McCain. Since I can’t split my vote, 80% wins.

  12. Tricia Says:

    I respect and can relate to your decision regarding pro-life. I too voted for Bush the past two elections mainly because of this. But this time around, I have taken some time to reflect on my previous decision and have come to conclusion that ultimately every person has their God given right to decide for thereselves, regardless of man made laws. We as Christians must abide by the teachings of Christ our Lord and savior, which is why I am against abortion and same sex marriage. It is not the way God intended us to live. Regardless of what politicians choose, we still have the right to choose against their beliefs. Barack Obama is not a Pastor; he is not the Messiah he is just a politician who inevitably sins, just as we all do. I am not 100% in agreement with his choices; nonetheless, he has my vote because of the other issues at hand. Even if he is elected as a President he himself can not change the law. It must go through the Supreme Court for each state. Having said that, even if the Supreme Court passes the law then WE as CHRISTIANS ultimately have the choice – 1.) Abide by man made laws or 2) Abide by God.

    God is not judging us as a country, but as individuals. When it is judgment day, He will not judge me for what politicians and anyone else did in my country, but for what I did as an individual.

  13. Donatello Says:

    Tricia,

    That’s quite a sad statement to say. It’s one thing to say that we should follow higher laws than the government – and we should – but it’s another to say that people should vote for a man who explicitly endorses abortion and infanticide. Your arguments for voting for Obama sound eerily like Obama’s own arguments for his support of abortion (”since I’m not certain [although you are], people should be free to chose themselves, even if it really is murder”).

    One problem with your argument is that whereas in certain forms of government you have absolutely no say in what the government does, at least in a democracy, you can vote in favor of a candidate based on their views. Voting for someone who has no real grasp of ethics versus someone who does is unconsciable for a Christian.

    The real question you should be asking when thinking about the candidates is whether or not McCain will actually act according to the position he’s taking. If he’s anything like the Conservative party here in Canada, the answer will be “no”, but our political problems are even worse in some respects than yours.

  14. Tex Taylor Says:

    I swore I would never comment on this board again, but the responses here are going to make me lie. I have never witnessed more muddled thinking by people calling themselves Christian than I am reading now.

    And I am now completely convinced that many of the Evangelical community are so desperately ignorant and lost about God’s will, they will soon be hearing the words, “Depart from me, I never knew you.”

    First, the obvious. To say that the Republicans have done nothing for pro-life issues only shows that there are people so negative in their thinking of George Bush, that they have quickly forgotten how much heat G.W. personally took for appointing not one, but two excellent SCOTUS who just happened to be pro-life. How quickly we forget that was the divisive issue. I can not personally think of one thing a Republican Congress could do that would more positively impact the movement of stopping the infanticide than revoking Roe V. Wade and returning the right to the people of the U.S. to decide. One vote from one new justice and that legal battle will be over. And if you think that Obama will appoint that kind of man or woman to the bench, you are sorely mistaken.

    And this statement so ludicrous, words escape me:

    First, through their puritanical war on sex education they’ve hindered our country from actually preventing unwanted pregnancy.

    That puritanical war is exactly what our Heavenly Father instructs everyone of us to do. Abstaining outside of marriage – one man, one woman period for a lifetime of commitment. How in the world can anybody calling themselves a “Christian” dispute this? This man is a flim-flam, a facade, and a goat I don’t care how “famous” or “enlightened” he may claim.

    And this commentary: God is not judging us as a country, but as individuals. Really? Well that certainly goes against what God has said and done and you can pick virtually any passage from Exodus thru Kings that says you are incorrect. Ask the nation of Israel if God does not judge entire nations.

    Not only does God judge the individual heart but He has, on occasion, held entire nations accountable for the actions of a few because His own flock refused to hold the evil doers accountable. Just as I am witnessing now…

    I’ll remind all of you calling themselves Christian of these verses if you think that voting for a man who has run with racists and anarchists, who apparently has no problem with viable babies being butchered in the mother’s birth canal, and whose economic policies are borderline socialist, that if he gets elected, you won’t be held accountable for your vote:

    From the book of Ezekiel (Chapter 33):

    2 “Son of man, speak to your countrymen and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword against a land, and the people of the land choose one of their men and make him their watchman, and he sees the sword coming against the land and blows the trumpet to warn the people, then if anyone hears the trumpet but does not take warning and the sword comes and takes his life, his blood will be on his own head. Since he heard the sound of the trumpet but did not take warning, his blood will be on his own head. If he had taken warning, he would have saved himself. But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that man will be taken away because of his sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.’

    “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself.

    The moment you began to call yourself a Christian, you hold yourself to a higher calling. And by God’s authority, you have become the watchman.

  15. Marie Says:

    I was trying to find reaction to the Schaefer article which I read in Huffington Post. I was curious on how christians responded. I thank you for your honestly and posting what you did.

    As a non christian, I must say that I am often perplexed by the issue of abortion. Not to if it is wrong or not, but to the matter of how many conservatives vote. There has been a total of 22 years of republican leadership since Roe V. Wade. In that 22 years, 16 have been a perfect storm for the conservatives. Judges, congress, senate, and the White House. Reagan, Bush Sr., Bush Jr. all ran on anti-abortion campaigns. In 1979 the Christian Coalition made deals with the GOP, telling them that they would back them, and they would guarantee the support of the evangelicals of the country, if they would agree to say they were pro-life.
    And yet, to date, nothing has been done on the matter. In fact, I’d say that there are now, more than ever more loose laws regarding abortion. It seems to be the carrot of every election, and every other moral issue, including the treatment of a baby outside of the womb, is completely ignored. Millions of children every year are killed because of poor health care, because of abuse and yet it seems that the conservative view counteracts the view of abortion. Value life with in the womb, but outside of the womb? There is no longer as much advocacy and care about the rights of babies. Imagine if pro-life marchers also marched in rallies for children health care or for aid to unwed and poor mothers?
    (I know there are exceptions to this, and I do not mean to say this is every single conservative)
    However, every election year, every other atrocity is completely ignored, as soon as a candidate is pro-life they have the vote of the christian right. It matters not if they have lied about serious matters, who they want to protect, how they desire to help children, or the poor. And yet, every election in which a GOP party is elected, that is the last you will hear about the issue.
    I understand it is of great importance, but I am curious why it is the only issue of importance, when there are equally grave issues, that clearly violate the sanctity of life.
    In this election, John McCain and Obama are pro-choice. McCain stated in 2000 and then in 2003 that he would “never over turn roe v. wade, because it would do harm to millions of women” He started to change his tune after it was determined that he might get a chance to run on the GOP ticket. However, today he is still pro-choice. He believes that states have the right to choose abortion. He believes in cases of rape/incest/health it is always okay. That is pro-choice. If you argue that a baby is a baby regardless of how it is conceived, and you then say that you can abort the ones who are conceived under bad circumstances, and you give those women the right to choose – you are pro-choice. McCain also approves late term abortions in those cases, which makes him pro-choice as well. McCain is also an avid supporter of stem cell research (something I commend him on) but seems to not match up with many pro-life positions.
    The truth is, abortion will never be overturned. It has had 22 years to be overturned, and will continue to be an excellent ploy to get conservatives to vote. It saddens me that this is the only issue that matters. It seems that as conservatives you would want a candidate who works to lower the number of abortions, through proper sex education (let’s face it, not all people are following the bible, and need to learn how not to get pregnant), and economic policies in place, where any woman, of any religion or belief, knows that if they have a child, even if the father leaves, they will be taken care of, the child will have healthcare, the mom will have adequate help and guidance. We can’t just say the church will take care of it, because we can not impose religious beliefs on others, so it would be a matter for the govt. to handle. We can’t say “if you get pregnant, keep the baby, but tough, we’re not going to help you”. If you are pro-life, perhaps consider encouraging the govt. to increase programs to help the mothers, and the babies, so there is less fear. 80% of women who have abortions cite financial reasons. This is tragic to me. And I do not understand why it is not tragic to the conservative.
    I feel as though Frank outlined some very good points (as you say) but it seems that all points become invalid when he supports a candidate who is more pro-choice than the other one. And I wonder what will happen, if McCain gets elected, and another 4-8 years go by where nothing changes in regards to abortion? Will conservatives still just vote on the abortion issue, and hope that this time they are not being used as political pawns? I think that as a conservative I would be outraged if after this long of republican leadership, it became obvious that my religion and conscience was being used to get my vote.
    Sorry for the long response, I felt as though you were very balanced in your view, and respect the style in which you write. I am simply trying to understand, as someone who really is having a hard time with this particular issue.

  16. wickle Says:

    No need to apologize for long responses. I appreciate the thoughts of others.

    There is an oft-cited slogan, “Life doesn’t end at birth,” an indictment of those who call themselves pro-life but are really only anti-abortion. I distinguish between the two. I call myself pro-life, and as such I oppose abortion, euthanasia, capital punishment, unnecessary wars, the use of weapons and tactics which cause excessive civilian deaths (”depleted” uranium, cluster bombs, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, biological weapons, land mines, etc.), and excessive pollution. I support efforts to improve and maintain living standards for children.

    That does mean that I break from Republican orthodoxy, but I have no problem with that.

    You’re also right, Sen. McCain has voiced his pro-choice position in the past, his conversion to being pro-life is conveniently timed to bring me around. The same thing happened with Gov. Romney, who was running as an alleged pro-lifer, having changed his position conveniently in time for the nomination run.

    Come to think of it, George H. W. Bush was also pro-choice up until his role as VP in the Reagan administration. Gerald Ford (who was openly pro-choice) even commented that he knew for a fact that the Bushes remained pro-choice.

  17. Marie Says:

    Thanks so much for your response. And for clearing up that there are different sides of this issue. It is encouraging to me that not all who are pro-life do not believe, as you said “life ends at birth”. I admire your very steady stance on issues of life and death, again, as someone who is not a christian, I have only seen conservative/evangelicals portrayed in one light when it comes to the issues you mentioned above. That has been to be pro-life, and then at the same time be for the destruction of life in so many ways.
    Thanks for the insight, it is very much appreciated.

  18. Jill Says:

    I am an evangelical Christian, and stubbornly pro-life. I am ALSO a very firm supporter of Barrack Obama. I will vote for him even though I disagree with him on the abortion issue (what we Christians also ignore is the second and part of his policy on this issue…he is determined to address causes of pregnancy and prevent them. No one is taking about this! The republicans are not doing this either!. Dear brethren, we Christians come across as very arrogant, lacking grace and extremely judgmental. And quite sadly, very ignorant. IF we are to commit so many words to criticizing Obama, how come I haven’t read anything about criticizing Bush’s last eight years, or McCain’s positions on abortion in the past! Can we also pass moral judgments, based on God’s word, on the actions of the republicans for the past 8 years – the lies, deception, corruption, killing of innocent people (through unjust wars – with the exception of Afghanistan) etc? Is John McCain a believer? How come when Barrack Obama says he is a believer we evangelicals subject him to further scrutiny, as though we hold the key to his heart and can determine who is a true believer to who isn’t? I must also point out that as a voting block, we evangelicals have been greatly responsible for propagating the lie that he is Muslim?
    If we apply the same yardstick of scrutiny to John McCain and George Bush and the Republican Party at large, they do not make the mark. It is no wonder we are referred to as “one issue” voters!
    Every president of this great country while taking office, swears to uphold the constitution of the United States, and included in that constitution is the Fourteenth Amendment (basis of the Roe vs Wade judgment). So whatever the President believes, he will swear to uphold the legality of abortion. Period.
    For the most part, the world will be ruled by non-believers, and we must use Daniel-like wisdom to lift Christ up, not petty arguments that turn people away from Him.
    Let us turn the question around for a moment: if we want to have High Court judges that are conservative so that they pass judgments in favor of our world view, aren’t we setting precedents for other people to do the same in future? Finally, let us look at the log in our own eyes. The Church in America has been in decline. It has never been and never will be the government’s role to change hearts and save should. That is Christ’s work through us. In confusing and mixing up spiritual issues with political issues (ring a bell: the Jews thought Jesus had come to bring political change!) we lose sight of what our role in the world is…to bring people to Christ, through our love for God and for each other. So far we have had a horrendous track record.
    I don’t think either the republicans or the democratic party represents anything fundamentally Christian. And therefore I do not see any reason why anyone, evangelical or otherwise should be held hostage to voting for anybody based on single issues. Instead, we must show balanced judgment…and if you answer the above questions justly, you can choose whomever candidate you wish to vote for. Or better still, come with a sincere and open prayer to ask God for wisdom on whom to vote for. And then in obedience to His prompting, vote accordingly. The rest of all the ranting we make, is purely HUMAN, with an absolute absence of God’s Holy Spirit – hence the massive confusion!! Bottom line: don’t utter a word if you have not prayed about it and received wisdom. Personally, I have not prayed about my decision. I am take my position out of a protest because we have failed as Christians and I want to take a position that is completely opposite from the “hypocritical mainstream”! I protest the last eight years of hypocrisy and poor judgment. And I trust the Obama/Biden ticket more than I trust the McCain/Palin ticket, to bring fundamental changes to this country. This is my opinion. I am still evangelical and still Pro-life.

  19. wickle Says:

    Jill, I’m sure your comment is very interesting, but I stopped reading when I hit this part –

    “IF we are to commit so many words to criticizing Obama, how come I haven’t read anything about criticizing Bush’s last eight years, or McCain’s positions on abortion in the past!”

    I’m not sure to whom you’re speaking, but it’s obviously not me. I have specifically stated that I don’t support Sen. McCain because of his stated positions on abortion, and I’ve gone on at length about my disagreements with Pres. Bush on many aspects of being pro-life.

    I welcome criticism, but I prefer that it be based in reality.

  20. Jill Says:

    Wickle, many people not just yourself post comments. I did not specifically level my criticism toward you. I am talking about “us”, evangelicals and pro-lifers. I started by saying I am an evangelical and pro-life. Those are the subject of my statement. This is self-criticism in a way. Because I am generalizing here, I do fall prey of what you have said. However, if we indeed count the number of criticisms (re: words) against Obama vs McCain on the above issues, then my statement stands the test of fact.

  21. wickle Says:

    Jill, fair enough.

    Sorry, maybe I shouldn’t write at 2:30 in the morning, huh?

    You and I actually agree.

  22. Clari Says:

    I am an evangelical that will vote for Obama. The pro life issue is one in which we have to asks ourselves what should the role of goverment be? What is the church doing to educate our children inside and outside of church? Can the goverment invest more in education? Abortion will always be there unless the attitudes of the hearts are changed. Goverment can not accomplish that. Church and christians can thru the power of our Lord, Jesus. When the tree of knowledge was placed in the garden of Eden, God knew that we would fail. But there was a choice to be made for love is only love if chosen. Isn’t God all powerfull? The God I serve has my days numbered and the lives of all the people in the world, born or unborn. I will never forget when I was 13 years old a ctholic church had a conference for teenagers and a neighboor invited me. That day changed the attitude of my heart. I saw how a life was terminated and saw a “fetus” in a “jar” thru the different stages. Education is the key if we want to change our society. And church and families should play the biggest role not the goverment

  23. wickle Says:

    Clari, that’s a very good answer.

    While I disagree with your decision, you make a very good case, and explain it well.

  24. fifty first stater Says:

    At home recovering after surgery, I mused is there such a group in the US as evangelicals for Obama. So I have found this site.
    I have mostly enjoyed the tone of the discussion. Now, my Aussie contribution: Historically evangelical and conservative have not been synonyms. Today in many countries they are identical twins. Jesus Christ our Lord and saviour, was a radical,not a conservative. He was and is the ultimate change agent. Yet in his great wisdom he often stopped his disciples from taking political action, ( I am not suggesting christians do not vote) rather he encouraged them to radical social action. The right wing paradigms have come crashing down in recent weeks the US has become a “socialist republic” so perhaps Christians have already started rethinking their priorities
    Go on elect Obama, after all his lips don’t move when he reads, and he doesn’t own seven homes and thirteen vehicles. I am pro life but Mari and Evan-gelical, Jill and Clari have put good arguments for voting for Barack Obama.
    Obama has said he will sit down with those not allies of the US. How scriptural. If I may it’ s long overdue for US recognition of Cuba. Its long overdue for changing your justice system,over two million men and women in US prisons! Shades of Stalinist Russia. Yes we need justice for babies, but the US has 40 million who have no health cover. Millions who are paid third world wages. Justice cries out maybe, Barack Obama will prove to be another Lincoln . Maybe he will have Jimmy Carter’s heart and FDR’s brains.

  25. MusicIsOurHigh Says:

    Obama supports choice, not abortion.

    I refuse to believe that he will bear the weight of the sin for what others do. Each of us have a choice.

    Also are we going to focus on one sin or do they all count?

  26. wickle Says:

    Of course all sins count. I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say, but you might find that I’m very critical of Sen. McCain, as well. Heck, I’ve had my Christianity questioned over how critical I am of the Republican ticket.

    As for being “pro-choice” and not pro-abortion, I thought that I made a case in the post explaining my point. If you’re trying to correct me, you need to add something, not just recite a slogan.

    Out of curiosity, would you argue that Robert E. Lee, who personally criticized the practice of slavery, was pro-slavery, or just pro-choice?

    I generally use the term “pro-choice” to avoid this particular semantic argument, but when it comes down to it, if you support something, you support it.

  27. Nam Says:

    You have written a very nice article but it’s without sources, and therefore it’s just opinion. I found this awhile back; with Obama’s own words on the issue: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html

    -Nam

  28. Nam Says:

    Disregard the “no sources” above; I’m new to this sort of website where the “blue words” are the sources, I just noticed that with my name, and I hovered over a word above, and saw the source. My apologies. But still, that link is a good link to read.

    -Nam

  29. wickle Says:

    Nam, no apology necessary. It happens all the time.

  30. anappygirl Says:

    God gives US the right to choose — and that means that we can choose that which is not of Him. That’s a hard reality, but it’s the truth.

    I can not choose a president based on his view on abortion — while ignoring his position on issues that impact those who are already….here. I used to do that, so I understand, but I can’t anymore. You wanna question my Christianity because of that? Well, go ahead. No sleep lost. Jesus knows.

    The Church is in crisis — we talk a lot of good-sounding stuff, but it’s time to dance, or get off the stage. We have failed in our mission to go and make DISCIPLES. Got a lot of “church-goers”, but not nearly enough disciples. Jesus is neither a Republican, nor a Democrat. He’s God, and He’s the only one, who’s incorruptible.

    Be a true light. Be willing to stand by and with women, who find themselves in difficult times, and pregnant. Stop “picketing” and start “uplifting”.

    We depend too heavily on the man (or woman) who sits in a chair, in an “Oval Room”. We don’t trust God to “turn the heart of the King”, to accomplish His will — if WE would turn (from evil), trust (God, not a fallible “President”) and touch (reach out and impact). We speak as if our future rests in the man who occupies the White House, rather than The One who holds the earth in His hands.

    What a shame.

  31. anappygirl Says:

    Oh…and I forgot — “Pearl” nailed it!

    Please wake up. Republicans are no more interested in pro-life issues than anyone else. They’ve been using this as a tool to get elected for years. They’ve had control of the White House and both houses for years and have done nothing about abortion. Don’t you see you’re being played?

  32. wickle Says:

    Anappygirl, I hope that you’re not speaking to me with:

    You wanna question my Christianity because of that? Well, go ahead. No sleep lost. Jesus knows.

    I will certainly not question your Christianity for backing Obama. I don’t think that he’s a good choice, but I can see why someone might. I think we’ve crossed paths before on Maxdaddy’s blog, right? The same applies to his position.

    If you take a look at the rest of my posts, I think you’ll find that I’ve made a lot of the same points.

    I am not being played by the Republican Party. I’m not backing the Republican Party. I haven’t been a registered Republican since 1995. During the primaries, I did back a Republican candidate, but he didn’t win the nomination. I’m backing Joe Schriner, an independent candidate who holds to a consistent pro-life ethic on every issue — abortion, euthanasia, war, the environment, poverty, health care, etc..

  33. anappygirl Says:

    Wickle,
    I’m not talking to “you”. I’m talking to all evangelicals who question the Christianity of their fellow brothers and sisters, if they choose to not vote for a guy, just because he’s “Pro-life”.

  34. Pana Says:

    Jill,
    I like you post, well said and I pray that many Christians will read your post and seek God’s guidance on election day. Pls continue to pray for our leaders, especially Obama when he takes on this huge challenge ahead of him on 4Nov.

    Sydney, Aust

  35. udkjak Says:

    You talk about proving your own point. Amazing.

    “And quite sadly, very ignorant. IF we are to commit so many words to criticizing Obama, how come I haven’t read anything about criticizing Bush’s last eight years…”

    Jill, just where do you think your thoughts have come from? Certainly not from reading the Word.

    I just found this blog and I must say that I am astonished by this thread. I cannot comprehend how any true believer could support someone who is so committed to recognizing and indeed increasing the “rights” of every “group” other than Christians and the unborn.

    The LORD commands, “Thou shall not murder”. He does not say thou shall not kill, He says, you shall not murder.

    I cannot comprehend how any true believer could support someone who believes it is a woman’s RIGHT to be able to murder her unborn child and failing that but having made up her mind to murder, it then becomes the woman’s RIGHT to murder her child who survives the first murder attempt.

    I cannot comprehend how any true believer could support someone who sat 20 years under the “preaching and teaching” of Rev. Wright the racist.

    I cannot comprehend how any true believer could support someone who is friends with the unrepentant murderer Bill Ayers.

    I cannot comprehend how any true believer could support someone who not only despises true believers believing them ignorant fools “clinging to their guns and bibles” and voices that to his elite San Francisco friends.

    And these are just the biblically based things I cannot comprehend.

    I also cannot comprehend but I never cease to be amazed that the most fervent supporters and those most willing to minimize the murder issue are women. I can understand this view coming from those who “love the world” but from those who are supposed to be “daughters of light” it really baffles me. This self-justification is just that, it comes from the self and as all Christians know that is what got us into trouble in the first place.

  36. Bryce Lathrop Says:

    As a white “evangelical” Christian, I believe abortion is murder, being good stewards of Creation, and legislating from the bench is absurd. That is why I voted and continue to believe Barack Obama is the best choice.

    On abortion:
    Double digit increase of abortions during Bush & Reagan.
    Decrease of abortion rate during Clinton.
    First time Democrats added language outside of Roe vs Wade on platform.

    God moves in mysterious ways which may include the “liberal left”.

  37. S. Swann Says:

    Barack Obama is not part of “the liberal left.” He does not think abortion is a good thing and has devised plans to decrease them. “Partial birth abortion” is a semantic ploy which stands for “late term abortion.” No doctor wants to perform a late term abortion. They are only advised if the womans life is in danger. It has to be that extreme. Please go to the link below to see a brief clip from Senator Obama’s conversation with Pastor Rick Warren about abortion. Most people who do not plan to vote for Obama will not even listen to his platform. So they have no clue as to where he stands on any issue. How about you, are you afraid to hear what he has to say?

  38. wickle Says:

    Sigh …

    “Partial-birth abortion” is not a semantic ploy. It refers to a particular procedure in which the child to be killed in partially born and then killed.

    I know what Sen. Obama said to Rick Warren. Great. Thanks for the link, though. Do you know what he said to Jill Stanek about the Born Alive Infant Protection Act?

    Are you afraid to hear what he said?

  39. Pana Says:

    You Christians who somehow fear Obama, if you really are a child of God, pray, pray and never cease praying for the new Commander in Chief that God has chosen. God can use bad as you may think and bring good out for his glory. Please stop boxing God to suit yourselves because our God is a BIG God.
    He is not the Joe down the street and doesn’t know what is going on and that we (creatures) have to advise the creator.

  40. Brandon Says:

    When Obama signs the “Freedom of Choice Act” which will abolish all restrictions on abortion, I look forward to the thoughts of those who claim to be evangelicals yet still voted for Obama.

    I will be very interested how they can state that their vote was based on prayer and seeking God’s will.

    It saddens me to think that some Christians could be so misled.


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